Showing posts with label smacking. Show all posts
Showing posts with label smacking. Show all posts
Sunday, September 10, 2006
Tuesday, September 05, 2006
Violence: what is it?
Following on from our lively discussion of smacking - there was some dispute about the use of the word 'violent' (that is, that this word implied an unwarranted aggression). I know online sources are a bit unreliable, but Wikipedia's definition is interesting:
"Violence is deliberate behaviour resulting in physical injury to other human beings, or more broadly to other animals as well, and is often, but not necessarily, associated with aggression. Some forms of violence are socially and legally sanctioned, others are crimes. Different societies apply different standards relating to approved and non-approved forms of violence.
Forms of violence include:
Assassination
Assault
Boxing
Corporal punishment
Domestic violence
Drive-by shooting
Dueling
Genocide
Judicial execution
War
Martial arts"
This is a more neutral definition of violence - in which case smacking is most certainly violent. It is just a sanctioned form of it.
Tuesday, August 15, 2006
Smacking: some summary thoughts
Well: thankyou everyone for the discussion! I thought I would just post a concluding reflection, trying to draw the threads together somewhat. I offered the debate without claiming to be a particularly successful or expert parent: I think I am just as frustrated and bewildered and delighted as everyone else by the whole experience!
I guess I knew already that this would be a controversial issue. Almost anything to do with parenting is. I think this is partly to do with the universality of the issue – we have all experienced the parenting of our parents, and many people are or are potentially parents. But also, it is because of the dearth of guidance available as to how to do the really difficult job of parenting. We could add to this the fact that we have so much of ourselves invested in our children: our whole vision of what it is to be a human being, or ought to be. And, we do love them, and we don’t want to think we have erred in bringing them up. It is even more sensitive than sexuality, I venture to say.
It is worth saying that this is true of this issue in the wider community, and not just amongst Christians. If you check the pages of parenting magazines you will find some of the most passionate and articulate debate about what it means to be human going around.
I raised the issue of smacking. We don’t do it, though I am not opposed to smacking per se. For me, it was a practical as much as philosophical decision. (I need to add that none of the opinions expressed in this blog are necessarily those of my wife!) I think that the following debate was marked by some confusion, because some of the proponents of smacking equated non-smacking with non-disciplining. This is far from the case: however imperfect our system might be, we certainly do discipline and rebuke our children.
The issue of the bible was raised: smackers claimed that there was ‘clear biblical evidence’ in favour of smacking and noted how little scripture was forwarded by the other side. There certainly are some strong statements in Proverbs about discipline that appear to relate to corporal punishment, for example:
Proverbs 13:24 24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
Proverbs 23:13-14 13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. 14 Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
However, it was in my view rightly answered that the verses refer to discipline per se and not necessarily to the method of discipline. Further, to take the verses literally would mean investment in rods, which pro-smacking parents haven’t seem by and large to have done. On the other hand, there is no missing the very strong affirmation of the value of discipline for the child here. So: I think that corporal punishment is permitted, but not demanded at this point. (Which I think was all you were arguing for CraigS, right?)
This lack of biblical evidence leads me to another observation. On many issues on which people are looking for direct guidance, the Bible offers little or piecemeal advice. The bible is not meant to be comprehensive in these matters. But our tendency is sometimes to overstate the advice the bible gives. I think this is true on gender issues – we just don’t get that much information on being a man or a woman in the Bible, but we keep looking for it. Sure there is some guidance: but not as much as you would think, given the way we keep talking about it. Within the Bible’s teaching there are many many ways to be a man or a woman.
Likewise with parenting. One of the worst things about some Christian parenting manuals is the way in which what amounts to practical wisdom is given a quasi-scriptural authority - you know, ‘this is growing children God’s way’ and all that. You’d think Genesis was actually all about routine feeding of babies. Strangely, it isn’t. One of the worst examples of this is the way in which the life of Israel is used as a direct example for the life of Christian families without any differentiation in terms of the gospel. The notion of covenant is particularly misused in this regard.
Christians ought to be good at life wisdom, and do have the foundation for knowing all sorts of things about the world that secular people might be blind to see: but wisdom is a broad and flexible category of knowledge about the world. (This is why Solomon’s botanical manuals didn’t end up in the Bible, I imagine… though a piece of his erotica did, didn’t it?)
Which is all by way of saying: there just isn’t that much information about the issue of smacking in the Bible on which to make a dogmatic statement about it.
However: it does seem to me that a number of theological/philosophical/ethical issues have been raised by our discussion that would definitely feed in to a discussion of parental discipline.
1 - There seemed to be some differences as to what the point of parenting should be and then the role of discipline within that.
2 – Coupled to that: was childhood a thing to be enjoyed for its own sake, or is it to be seen as a preparation for adulthood mainly? Is the exuberance of childhood to be celebrated or curbed?
3 – What is the relationship between anger and punishment in the parent-child relationship? In fact, what IS punishment?
4 – What is violence? Is smacking violent?
5 – How does all this relate to the character of God the Father and his chastisement of Christians for their good? I am thinking of Hebrews 12:7-11 :
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it
I guess I knew already that this would be a controversial issue. Almost anything to do with parenting is. I think this is partly to do with the universality of the issue – we have all experienced the parenting of our parents, and many people are or are potentially parents. But also, it is because of the dearth of guidance available as to how to do the really difficult job of parenting. We could add to this the fact that we have so much of ourselves invested in our children: our whole vision of what it is to be a human being, or ought to be. And, we do love them, and we don’t want to think we have erred in bringing them up. It is even more sensitive than sexuality, I venture to say.
It is worth saying that this is true of this issue in the wider community, and not just amongst Christians. If you check the pages of parenting magazines you will find some of the most passionate and articulate debate about what it means to be human going around.
I raised the issue of smacking. We don’t do it, though I am not opposed to smacking per se. For me, it was a practical as much as philosophical decision. (I need to add that none of the opinions expressed in this blog are necessarily those of my wife!) I think that the following debate was marked by some confusion, because some of the proponents of smacking equated non-smacking with non-disciplining. This is far from the case: however imperfect our system might be, we certainly do discipline and rebuke our children.
The issue of the bible was raised: smackers claimed that there was ‘clear biblical evidence’ in favour of smacking and noted how little scripture was forwarded by the other side. There certainly are some strong statements in Proverbs about discipline that appear to relate to corporal punishment, for example:
Proverbs 13:24 24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
Proverbs 23:13-14 13 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. 14 Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.
However, it was in my view rightly answered that the verses refer to discipline per se and not necessarily to the method of discipline. Further, to take the verses literally would mean investment in rods, which pro-smacking parents haven’t seem by and large to have done. On the other hand, there is no missing the very strong affirmation of the value of discipline for the child here. So: I think that corporal punishment is permitted, but not demanded at this point. (Which I think was all you were arguing for CraigS, right?)
This lack of biblical evidence leads me to another observation. On many issues on which people are looking for direct guidance, the Bible offers little or piecemeal advice. The bible is not meant to be comprehensive in these matters. But our tendency is sometimes to overstate the advice the bible gives. I think this is true on gender issues – we just don’t get that much information on being a man or a woman in the Bible, but we keep looking for it. Sure there is some guidance: but not as much as you would think, given the way we keep talking about it. Within the Bible’s teaching there are many many ways to be a man or a woman.
Likewise with parenting. One of the worst things about some Christian parenting manuals is the way in which what amounts to practical wisdom is given a quasi-scriptural authority - you know, ‘this is growing children God’s way’ and all that. You’d think Genesis was actually all about routine feeding of babies. Strangely, it isn’t. One of the worst examples of this is the way in which the life of Israel is used as a direct example for the life of Christian families without any differentiation in terms of the gospel. The notion of covenant is particularly misused in this regard.
Christians ought to be good at life wisdom, and do have the foundation for knowing all sorts of things about the world that secular people might be blind to see: but wisdom is a broad and flexible category of knowledge about the world. (This is why Solomon’s botanical manuals didn’t end up in the Bible, I imagine… though a piece of his erotica did, didn’t it?)
Which is all by way of saying: there just isn’t that much information about the issue of smacking in the Bible on which to make a dogmatic statement about it.
However: it does seem to me that a number of theological/philosophical/ethical issues have been raised by our discussion that would definitely feed in to a discussion of parental discipline.
1 - There seemed to be some differences as to what the point of parenting should be and then the role of discipline within that.
2 – Coupled to that: was childhood a thing to be enjoyed for its own sake, or is it to be seen as a preparation for adulthood mainly? Is the exuberance of childhood to be celebrated or curbed?
3 – What is the relationship between anger and punishment in the parent-child relationship? In fact, what IS punishment?
4 – What is violence? Is smacking violent?
5 – How does all this relate to the character of God the Father and his chastisement of Christians for their good? I am thinking of Hebrews 12:7-11 :
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it
Monday, July 31, 2006
corporal punishment
My wife and I are non-smackers of our children.
This is a reasonably controversial thing to be amongst Christians. And, I have to say, most people who were adults now (in Anglo-Saxon countries anyhow) were smacked as children - and most without any ill effects.
Our 'philosophy' is really just pragmatic: we think it is more effective not to smack and to discipline by other means. So, we are happy to say smacking might work for someone else but not for us. I have to say it is really useful to have such a policy in place for those times when you really get mad...
Any thoughts?
This is a reasonably controversial thing to be amongst Christians. And, I have to say, most people who were adults now (in Anglo-Saxon countries anyhow) were smacked as children - and most without any ill effects.
Our 'philosophy' is really just pragmatic: we think it is more effective not to smack and to discipline by other means. So, we are happy to say smacking might work for someone else but not for us. I have to say it is really useful to have such a policy in place for those times when you really get mad...
Any thoughts?
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