Imputation: a conversation

charles says:
the fruit of the cross is forgiveness
Steve says:
yes
charles says:
...some people contrast forgiveness and the imputation of His righteousness as if forgiveness is a merely a negative thing and the other is positive are you with me so far?
Steve says:
forgiveness is just 'getting off the hook'
charles says:
but that cannot be true; if forgiveness is real it must be positive and just be another way of saying that righteosness is credited to us etc etc
charles says:
you can't be cleansed and yet waiting still to be declared righteous
charles says:
are you with me?
Steve says:
no indeed.
Steve says:
by which I mean, yes I am with you!
Steve says:
so: even though there are very few imputation texts
it is implied in the notion of forgiveness
Steve says:
or, it is a corollory of forgiveness
charles says:
so: forgivenss is a sufficient way of talking about the effect of the cross
Steve says:
I would add union with Christ to forgiveness
charles says:
well what is union with Christ but the attrribution of all Christ's accomplishments to us?
Steve says:
well, it is much more!
Steve says:
Holy Spirit? adoption into the family of God?
Steve says:
participation in the divine nature (2 Peter)
Steve says:
life
charles says:
and that is precisely why the great Calvin begins the second part of theology with union with Christ even before we arrive at justification etc
Steve says:
(and Luther does too)
charles says:
my point is however. not that there are not many blessings through union
Steve says:
really?
charles says:
but that one of those blessings is the attribution of Christ's righteousness to us
Steve says:
got some text for me?
Steve says:
2 Cor 5 (though this is disputed)
charles says:
of course it is disputed because it proves the point!
Steve says:
well: it seems to me that the Tom Wright difficulty with imputation stems from a caricature
Steve says:
(surprise surprise)
charles says:
true ...
charles says:
start from the top: is righteousness imputed to us?
Steve says:
whose?
Steve says:
well, it ain't ours.
Steve says:
it is alien
Steve says:
so, yes
Steve says:
well, it depends on what 'righteousness' itself means of course
charles says:
does 1 Cor 1:30 help?
Steve says:
well, yes... though: can't you say
Steve says:
Christ was perfected in his obedience in order that he could be our perfect representative...
Steve says:
I mean, does the 'our' imply something actually given to us, or attributed to us?
charles says:
go back to union with Christ
Steve says:
ok. I am back there
charles says:
I presume we come into union with Christ through faith and not our own works
Steve says:
tick
charles says:
I presume eg that forgiveness redemption etc is a free gift to those who are unoted with Christ?
Steve says:
again, a tick
charles says:
i presume that this is made possible by the penal substitutionary death of Christ?
Steve says:
yes
Steve says:
though, explained carefully
charles says:
i am told in romans that although i lack any righteousness of my own i have now been creditied with righteousness
Steve says:
you are
Steve says:
credited with, or credited as
Steve says:
?
charles says:
it being on account of my faith ie the point being faith alone and not works
Steve says:
true
charles says:
am i not forced to say that this righteousness (alien) is a gift from God on the basis of the death of his Son?
Steve says:
I think so.
Steve says:
(I am not much of a Boso, to your Anselm, am I?)
charles says:
give it a break !
Steve says:
well: it depends a bit what you understand righteousness to be I guess. Can I substitute forgiveness or vindication for it?
Steve says:
as a word?
charles says:
no they are not synonyms and I wonder why we would do that in the light of Rom 4
Steve says:
well, what is it?
charles says:
start with Rom 3:19,20
charles says:
Forgiveness language works in the realm of the personal and is needed for a complete picture
charles says:
but righteousness language works in the realm of the public and legal
charles says:
thus law, accountability, sin = transgression
Steve says:
yes, all good, I mean, all bad
charles says:
bad and accountable
charles says:
therefore needing not merely forgiveness but righteousness
charles says:
hence necessarily he then talks aboiut the death of Jesus in redemptibve, sacrificial and legal terms
Steve says:
righto
charles says:
and vindicates the righteousness of God for acting in what may seem to be an unrighteouss manner
Steve says:
ah, yes, that is the brilliance of it
Steve says:
both. and.
Steve says:
that is, it is forgiveness without injustice
charles says:
now turn to 4:4-9
Steve says:
ah, I love the 'before he was circumcised' bit: it is a great rejoinder to Reformed people who want to make us all legalists
Steve says:
Abraham never observed the law!
charles says:
dont be diverted
Steve says:
oh sorry.
charles says:
if you look at his quote from the psalm
Steve says:
yes
charles says:
it covers forgiveness in the first part and righteosness in the second
Steve says:
'not count his sin'
Steve says:
= righteousness?
charles says:
that is not to have your faults counted against you is the freedom from accountability which is righteousness see 3:19, 20
charles says:
yes, righteousness is the word we are using when we think of the relationship bettween God and man (as we must) in legal or judgement terms
Steve says:
covenantal?
Steve says:
or this the point that much confusion enters?
charles says:
I think it does: I was always a bit disappointed that the NT was not more explicitly covenantal; I think that the attempt to read it in is confusing the categories
Steve says:
ooooooooooo yes
charles says:
he justifies the ungodly ie those outside the covenant without Gofd and without hope in the world
Steve says:
but 'covenant' is where Tom W smuggles in his ecclesiology of course
charles says:
true ...

(How does it finish?)